Shiva In Exile
Every Moment Is Unique

25.07.2008

It’s only been four years since I did my first interview with Stefan Hertrich, but it now seems like it happened in another life. Stefan had since then quit his gothic metal band Darkseed and focused on ethno-related projects Shiva In Exile and SpiRitual, and I now represent a completely different webzine. But both of us remember that interview fondly, and when an opportunity arose to communicate via e-mail, we were up to it. The reason why Stefan is now talking to the press is the second Shiva In Exile album called “Nour” (“light” in the Arabic language). It’s still an affair that is focused on Oriental sounds and influences, but in many ways it’s more mature or simply different than the project’s debut album “Ethnic” (2003). But now let’s allow Stefan to talk, as there is a lot more behind his music than you can hear during a couple of listens…

In a recent interview you said that your life has changed tremendously since the time when you recorded “Ethnic”. How is this change reflected in the music of Shiva In Exile? And in general, do you consider Shiva In Exile a reflection of your own personality or something that is external and only comes into life with your help?

These life changes had nothing to do with music, but during songwriting of the new album “Nour” I often thought back to the times when I wrote “Ethnic”, and while looking back I realized how different my life and my point of view on many things was. These thoughts followed me often while writing “Nour” and it was an interesting aspect I am thankful for. (laughs) How are these changes reflected in the music… I think I became more disciplined and now spend more time for every song until I am really satisfied with the result. I learned that while writing SpiRitual “Pulse” (an ethno gothic CD I did in 2006) and Darkseed “Ultimate Darkness” (released in 2005). These CDs were a good learning lesson for writing Shiva In Exile “Nour” (laughs) I also still remember that in “Ethnic” times I got to know my friends from Lebanon who strengthened my interest in the Middle East and inspired the songwriting process of “Nour” a lot! I got more open minded towards other cultures and more thankful also for being able to live in a country like Germany, with all the good things we have: peace, infrastructure, unlimited power and water supply etc.

To some extent Shiva In Exile is a reflection of my own personality, yes. I think every album written by a musician, every painting drawn by a painter or every book written by an author to some extend is a personal reflection or emotional journey. The new Shiva In Exile album “Nour” can be well described as a “spiritual battlefield music”, reflecting all the personal conflicts many people have between “earthly” life aspects (society, job, people in your surroundings, financial issues) and trying to develop other personality features like respect, grace, humility. Moments where you succeed in respecting others, followed by moments of deep condemnation for the smallest things others do wrong. Shiva In Exile also has a very mystic component. A friend of mine said it well: “There are songs to make you dance, to make you cry, to have you stand up and scream to the skies... why!” The album provokes many strange emotions which are very difficult to define, and I also often listen to the album and don’t know exactly what I feel or why I feel it. I think the album creates emotions which make you aware of the fact that there exist more than just the things we can see or touch.

When we talked by phone shortly after the release of “Ultimate Darkness”, you seemed to be very happy about the album, and I personally consider it the best Darkseed record. Did you know already back then that it was going to be the last work of this band, or did the end come abruptly already after the recording and touring for this album?

I was also very happy with the result and still I am. I also consider it the best Darkseed album. I didn’t know it will be the last album, but I must say that after the first concerts we played for “Ultimate Darkness” I realized that my Darkseed time was over. I simply didn’t feel the same fascinated emotions anymore, and I also didn’t see them in the eyes of the audience (with some exceptions of course, and these exceptions really save your ass while standing on the stage and knowing that you have to sing one more hour with sweat in your face, haha). There’s a huge overload of bands and products in the metal genre and concerts are not an exciting event anymore, at least here in Germany. I had the impression people go on concerts for seeing “metal”, but not for seeing “band XY” and awaiting this moment for weeks. Maybe I am wrong and it’s just my own perspective, who knows. However, by doing Shiva In Exile I really can see the difference. People are writing e-mails, wanting to buy the album even if it’s not available yet except in Russia, people are wanting to buy not just one album but 10-15 for selling them to friends. The last time I saw that was in the early 1990s!!! I think oriental gothic, tribal music or belly dancing music is a great genre and people are not overloaded with products yet. Not many people do this kind of music and I don’t know any band in Germany except Shiva in Exile. That’s really a promising basis for the future and I can’t wait to start promotion which will start in 1-2 weeks once the website is up.

Both Shiva In Exile and SpiRitual are studio projects. Do you ever miss live performances and tours, or are you happier making music at home?

Writing music at home is a fantastic thing. You want to express yourself, get the feeling “I want to write this and that song”, maybe even have a CD cover in mind already, walk to your coffee machine, smoke a cigarette and then simply start to realize this vision in peaceful and balanced surroundings. You see your songs grow, listen to them when they are finished and just think “wow that’s just great!”. Usually I am pleased when this process is finished and start to think about the next CD. I simply “must do” these songs or CDs and don’t feel relaxed if I don’t find time to do them. Even after “Nour” I already wrote two more albums (one new age project I am currently doing with a friend of mine, and a private CD I did just for fun not being released, also new age stuff). But on the other hand I sometimes miss “life”. I don’t mean live performances by that, but simply “life”, I mean seeing people listening to the music and getting happy when doing so. Usually this can be achieved by playing concerts of course, but it’s really difficult with Shiva In Exile. But this is where the tribal/belly dancing concept of Shiva In Exile gets interesting: this music offers many possibilities for dancers, and dancers/fire spitters etc. planning their own individual choreographies and even performing them live on their own shows gives “life” to Shiva In Exile. That’s why I am very thankful for every dance video made by fans. (smiles) And who knows, maybe I can set up a serious concept for Shiva In Exile one day and go touring. It depends on the people I will get to know after release, on how well the album will be accepted both by bellydancing/tribal fans as well as gothic listeners. There are MANY possibilities, maybe too many to ignore them all. (laughs)

Dr. Christian Ratsch played a big part in the creation of both “Ethnic” and “Pulse”. Why isn’t he involved in the new album?

“Pulse” and “Ethnic” are a mix of modern European music and ethnic music, while “Nour” is very arabesque and not so much “ethnic” in general. When I think about Christian, I have rain forests, plants, Shamans in my head, and I am always happy if he supports my projects if these topics make sense. But “Nour” is simply a “different” album. Apart from that “Nour” doesn’t deliver a sort of “intellectual” message, it’s just emotional music you can listen or dance to, and Christian usually covers a huge part of the “informative content” not needed for “Nour”. Simply listen to the album, observe your emotions while listening to it, and that’s all about it. (smiles) It’s an album that inspires the “intellectual content” to be created inside of your inner self, and not so much by reading a booklet or a multimedia section. Christian likes “Nour” very much, and soon he’ll send me his latest book, being a biography about himself the first time ever. I am VERY curious to read it. (smiles)

Russian female singer Yana Veva is now your main collaborator in Shiva In Exile. How did you first get in contact with her? And what qualities does she possess as a singer and personality that singers in your immediate vicinity in Germany don’t have?

Alexey of IronD recommended her to me and told me I should go to the Theodor Bastard website and take a listen. I really liked her voice and she sang two songs for SpiRitual “Pulse”. The cooperation was great, so I thought “why not write a complete album together?”. We did that with Shiva In Exile and you can hear the result on “Nour”. I really love her voice, because it expresses so much even without understanding any lyrics.

You mention an important aspect: Indeed it’s difficult to find some components in the voice of German singers (which isn’t a general statement about German vocalists, many of them are great for the style of music they do!). Singers from other countries, usually from the Arabic world, simply have another “voice color”, it’s difficult to describe. German singers, or European singers in general, usually have a very clear and structured voice, while Arabic or “ethnic” singers sound more “free” and “expressive”, simply more emotional. Why Yana can sing like that, well, I really don’t know. (laughs) But she can do and it fits very well to the music of Shiva In Exile.

You said that “Ethnic” was a collection of various influences, while “Nour” is more focused on Middle Eastern harmonies. At the same time, some of the vocals on it are sung in Russian! In your opinion, how does the Russian language fit into the general picture of Middle-Eastern-flavored music? Was there any particular meaning behind using it, or was it just sounding better?

I was also surprised when I heard the Russian vocals the first time. (laughs) I think one important thought a musician or artist should have in mind when creating his “product” is “why not?”. Why not simply sing one song in Russian, why not simply hide one German sentence in an English song (I did that on Darkseed “Ultimate Darkness” here and then, and the reactions varied from “what an idiot” to “wow, how innovative” (laughs)). Yana for sure thought “why not?”, it sounded great, she sent it to me and I had no other choice than also thinking “why not, it sounds great”. (laughs) By the way, what does she sing about in that song? I have no idea. (smiles)

Another thing that caught me off-guard while listening to the album is the phrase “El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido” (“united people can never be defeated”). In Russia this phrase is very strongly associated with Latin American revolutionary (often pro-Communist) movements. As far as I understand, you took it out of the context and used it for a different purpose. But what purpose is this?

It’s interesting how many people have a connection to this phrase, I wasn’t aware of all the different reactions it might provoke. One guy from Ukraine said “ah great, we heard this phrase often some years ago during our revolutionary movement” while others connect it to pro-Communist movements. When I heard this phrase (it indeed was recorded in Latin America!) I immediately wanted to use it. Not because the message (I didn’t know what the woman says until a Spanish person translated it to me), but because the energy this voice delivers. Most people say this part is their favorite part on the album (Song 1 “Viva La Revolucion”), and I exactly know why. Because this woman screams her message 100% enthusiastic and 100% convinced. We have very much power by the words we say and how we say them, but usually are not aware of this kind of energy…

Listen to her and you know what I mean. It’s not important what she says but HOW she says it AND that she says it to masses of humans who repeat it. This creates a lot of energy! About the message of the song: “Viva La Revolucion” is – as you said it correctly – not about political movements but about “revolutions” people more and more perform inside of their heart and brain. More and more people live vegetarian, more and more people refuse to accept mass media content but look for alternative viewpoints in all aspects of life: politics, history, food, health, society. It’s important to leave old things behind and go on, to change old structures and discover new possibilities, even if some of them might turn out to be wrong but can be seen as a learning lesson. The whole world – in every moment – is a never ending movement, every moment is unique, and in every moment of our life we can discover new things, draw new and wiser decisions and leave old opinions behind to define ourselves more noble-minded than ever before.

In the multimedia section of “Pulse” you and Dr. Christian Ratsch wrote a lot about the influence that gothic metal has on the people. But what kind of influence do you expect Shiva In Exile to have on the people? Do you want people to start thinking about something, do you want to put them in a state of trance or meditation, or do you just want to entertain them?

I don’t think “Nour” is a good album for meditation, because it’s much too percussive and “wild” for meditating. If “Nour” entertains people AND makes them thoughtful (no matter about which topic) I am happy. If it’s just entertaining, it’s also okay! If it brings people together (the album will have fans both in the Christian AND the Islamic world), it’s just perfect! I think Shiva In Exile is great music for “coming together”, by watching dancers on summer events, medieval festivals, or performing choreographies with friends in a dance studio. And of course, as usual, it’s great music you can listen to alone, lying in bed or wherever. (laughs) But there’s no concrete goal or expectation behind the album. Listen to it and do with it whatever you want (except putting it on illegal download sites). (smiles)

By the way, why did you decide to put those comments in the multimedia section? As far as I can guess, it was an attempt to explain the essence of gothic metal in general and your music in particular to the people outside the scene (the people who are in the scene already know how they feel about it). Do you think that you have succeeded, and that some people have indeed changed their minds after reading these comments?

I don’t remember what exactly I wrote about because it was 3 years ago, but my main intention was to bring some sort of “content” on this music CD people can read and think about, apart from the lyrics. I know that music is the most important aspect of a CD, and it’s okay (as I said, “Nour” is very much focused on the music and dancing). However, one story I want to mention is a huge, a very huge article in a Scandinavian black metal magazine which said that I am dangerous for the world because I encourage people to think positive and believe in their skills etc. This article was really entertaining, unfortunately I threw it away. Maybe the editor would be so kind and send the issue to me again. (laughs) He really invested much time and space in his magazine to celebrate his “let’s slaughter Stefan Hertrich” visions (just symbolically, of course). I really tolerate his opinion and maybe sometimes it’s good that the metal/gothic scene discusses life issues and not just music. A young music listener cannot learn much if he permanently reads articles about the favorite food of the musicians he likes.

The press release accompanying the album says that Shiva In Exile is “the only German band that focuses their songwriting on gothic belly dancing”. How much is writing music for belly dancing different from writing music for any other purpose? Are there any traditions or rules that you have to follow?

The songs should be based on percussion instruments (in my opinion) and permanently include rhythmic instruments (silent parts with keyboards only cannot be used, because the dancer doesn’t know when the next part will start – percussion always is a good sort of guide concerning tempo, the beginning of a new movement etc.). However, not all songs on “Nour” are percussive. “Blue Healing” for instance is a very calm and atmospheric song, while “He’neya” can be considered as a fast darkwave song. To my surprise I already saw the video of a dance school that performed with “Blue Healing” as background music. I didn’t expect that it really works, but it seems to work. I think midtempo songs like “Khundas” are best for dancing and most people use this one.

You release “Nour” on your own label, and you did the same with “Pulse”. At the same time, there is a very popular opinion about independent music distribution that goes like this: “With present-day technologies, it’s not difficult for musicians to release their music by themselves and deliver it to the people, but without promotion by a record label the people just won’t be aware that such music is around.” Can you comment on this?

This is definitely right. The main problem is that people are not “aware” of the fact that good bands or albums exist. On the other hand, bands really hitting the current taste 100% and being  good will get popular even without label support. Take for instance Equilibrium, a metal band from my area and friends of mine. They became more famous by just having a demo than many bands having signed for big labels. This doesn’t happen often though. So in general, I think you are right.

The reason why I just signed a deal for Russia but not for Germany or the USA was that the conditions simply were too bad. I negotiated with several big labels and really tried to find compromises (it actually delayed the album for more than half a year!), but in the end I realized that I simply do not want to give the album away and get max. 10% of the money the listener will pay in the music shop. I don’t blame the labels, they must survive somehow. But they shouldn’t forget that their musicians already gave up surviving! Most musicians have a regular job, and it would be just fair if BOTH sides, label and band, have a regular job… Both coming home from work and writing music/doing their label work in their free time. Under such circumstances I am ready to accept 10% of the shop price. (laughs) However, I really don’t want to sound pissed, the situation is okay as it is. I enjoy writing music, I have no pressure, I don’t care about my sales and work together with friends who will help me to distribute and promote the album. Yes, I am talking about FRIENDS, not about business partners who even don’t know the album and try to sell it. It’s a great atmosphere and great energy which is built around “Nour”. However, there are for sure labels out there who would fit to the attitude of Shiva In Exile, so I wouldn’t exclude the possibility of label collaborations in the future.

By the way, just today a guy from England wrote to me that I am doing music “for those who are
willing to search for it” and he’s right. And I am thankful for each person finding it!

Another popular opinion is that the best way to get familiar with a culture is to experience it personally. At the same time, you haven’t been to Russia and I’m not sure if you have been to the Middle East. What are your primary sources of information about various cultures? Do you find these sources fully satisfying, or would you eventually like to actually visit the Middle East and maybe record live all the sounds you are using on your albums?

This is true for sure. It often happened that I didn’t like a person that much over e-mail but once I met this person, my opinion completely changed and the relationship got deeper after such a personal meeting. The same for sure works with different cultures. Yes, I never was in Russia, but I was in the Middle East several times, my girlfriend actually lives in the Middle East. (smiles)

However, I am not so much interested in the differences between cultures, but the similarities cultures have. I am very much interested in spiritual topics, and it’s interesting to find out how old wisdom and spiritual points of views are pretty much the same no matter where you are and to whom you talk. Especially “simple” persons from the country side have and live much wisdom. One interesting aspect is reincarnation. While the common opinion is that reincarnation doesn’t exist, you can find people EVERYWHERE claiming that they remember their previous lives or believe in reincarnation. So it’s not a topic only being well known in India etc. but I also noticed that in the Islamic or Christian world. A less spectacular but nevertheless very common “rule” can be found in all religions and cultures: The law of cause and effect. “For every action there is equal and opposite reaction” which means “don’t harm others because you might get harmed too” or “if you do something bad, bad things will also happen to you”. You can find this sort of rule in all holy books of our world religions. Or the saying “The best things come in threes” which means “if something happens two times, it will also happen a third time”. I have no idea why this saying exists, but you can find it in many cultures. It’s a desert wisdom and not only popular in America or Europe. One very fascinating point of view is “We are all one”, a general spiritual term often used by people who had or have mystic experiences and get a deeper understanding of the world, claiming that “God” can be found in every single element, even a stone etc. and everything/everybody is somehow connected with each other (song 12 on “Nour” is called “We are all one”, by the way). This experience isn’t made in just ONE religion but in ALL religions, for example by the Sufi dancers in the Islamic world. Let’s concentrate on these similarities and find out how they could enrich our everyday life instead of discussing which prophet or master of which religion is the best one!

These are just a few examples, but there are many examples of general understanding being common in every culture or religion. This is what I am interested in, and not so much in the clothes or language other cultures speak. I try to find the basis of what it means to be human, what connects us all!

Back to music: oh yes, it would be thrilling to record material in the Middle East. Who knows, maybe one day it will happen! I’d really like to write a song being used by Sufis for the whirling trance dances or used by Shamans in the rain forests as background music for their experiences.

When you started with Darkseed, it was more of a traditional European metal music, and the public wasn’t aware of your interest in ethnic music until you released the Betray My Secrets album (1999). When and how did you actually get interested in the oriental cultures? Did you start with music, or literature, or history, or anything else?

Yes, the music of Darkseed is very traditional or “typical” and I enjoyed doing this sort of normal metal music as well. Music doesn’t need to be innovative all the time, and even if Darkseed was a very “traditional” band, it touched many people emotionally all over the world. So I never blame my “old times” but still have many good memories about it. (smiles) But you are right, traditional is a good description, hehe. My interest in different cultures and music styles didn’t start before Betray My Secrets but grew while me and Christian Bystron (guitarist of Megaherz) wrote this album. The project started with a typical Gothenburg/Sweden death metal concept (I was a huge fan of In Flames, At the Gates and Dark Tranquillity) but ended as a very innovative mix of ethnic and metal music. (laughs) I think I have to tell the story again: Christian loaded one of my death metal songs but occasionally also started the CD player which included a native American flute CD, if I still remember everything correctly. Both songs came out of his music boxes and simply fit together well, and it was a sort of revelation for me. From that day on I was fascinated by adding ethnical elements to normal European music and this fascination didn’t stop.

I think that we all sometimes long for non-technical, original handmade music, giving us the chance to escape from our technical and complicated surroundings. If somebody thinks about ultimate peace, for sure no internet or PC images come to their mind but images of natural, non-technical elements like oceans, deserts, mountains, forests etc. Ethnic instruments and sounds intensify these images very well.

It would be very interesting to find out your opinion about some of the artists who are also known for mixing European and world music influences:
Orphaned Land
Dead Can Dance
Death In June
Enigma

I don´t know Enigma or Death in June, but I really like Dead Can Dance, especially the ethnic albums (not so much the old ones). They wrote great songs with very simple melodies repeating again and again but without getting boring. This is something I really admire and I also can hear it often in meditation music. Some meditation CDs are really boring (in my opinion), but others consist of just some very few sounds and melodies and I have no idea why these few sounds and melodies sound good and catchy, but when I try to do it, it just sounds cheap and boring. (laughs) I think it’s a very special skill to be able to write music like that and it proves that this musician has a very good musical understanding. I just know some songs of Orphaned Land and there’s one song I really like (I don’t know the name though). But there’s one thing I like about this band: They come from a country where cultural clashes are a big problem, but this band always tries to spread a positive energy and this “we are all one” feeling when being on stage. In Turkey they played a traditional Turkish song and made the fans REALLY happy with that! We shouldn’t forget that Turkey is an Islamic country while Orphaned Land come from a Jewish country, and concerts like that prove that music can really connect people and make them happy, no matter in which country it was written.

What music do you currently listen to at home? Are you still interested in what is going on in the metal scene? Have you recently heard any new or exciting bands playing this kind of music?

I must admit that I have no idea about what’s going on in the metal scene. I know which bands still exist or released a new album, but that’s all about it. (laughs) One metal album I like though is “Sagas” of Equilibrium, really a fantastic album and a great recording quality! Apart from that I listen to meditation music a lot, but there are only very few projects I like, for example Anugama, Llewellyn, Ray and Arondi.

You had a job in the PC game industry, now you run a company doing translations. Are there any other occupations (outside music) that you would like to try out? And is there a job you would never agree to do regardless of money issues?

Yes, I run a translation company with a friend of mine and we translate computer games or organize voice recordings for them. I like this job very much, because it’s a very peaceful job and I can do it from home. Oh, I wouldn’t agree to do most jobs. If I’d had to lie, even just a bit, I wouldn’t do it. Or everything having to do with killing animals or destroying nature. The main problem of the world isn’t a few powerful leaders being evil and ruining this planet, but MOST people switching off their brain and heart when going to work and performing really bad actions. They are too afraid to keep up their values, because they could lose their job. I notice it again and again with my own company. Accounting workers come up with their lies “yes we paid the money yesterday” etc. but the money never arrives. Also most people working in marketing or advertising business lie a lot. Or for example many dirty tricks in the gaming business in order to get good review results in magazines etc. (the same often happens in music business too, by the way – in pop, in metal etc.). Or people who earn money by the fear of others (people who sell life insurances, health insurances), but also newspaper writers who write whatever they have to write for getting their salary… But I blame nobody, I am just happy and thankful that life lead me to the job I now have! There are just a few jobs where you can really keep up your values without risking to lose your job, and I admire people who have the courage to dare the risk of losing their job. I don’t know whether I would have this courage, I must be thankful that I am not in such a situation. But on the other hand, I fought many years for reaching this point and now I can really say “yes, I am free”. Nobody can force me to lie or exploit other people. It was a long and hard way, but I think I have drawn the right decision and I really went through very difficult financial situations because of that.

Hm… what job I would like to try out… I am really happy with the mix of writing freaky music and doing serious translation work. (laughs) Distributing spiritual books, CDs and other products would be something I’d also like to do!

Do you view your engagement in Shiva In Exile and music in general as “a career”, and if yes, is there any ultimate goal you would like to reach with it? And can you imagine your life without making music?

Hmm, career sounds too spectacular, I’d just call it “companion”. My music projects were and are and for sure will be my companion wherever I go. Everything I do or experience forms my personality, and my personality of course forms the music I create. Fans experience this companionship because they listen to music, I experience it because I write music. Both ways are very similar.

Yes, I could imagine my life without making music, but not without being creative. Writing by using a pencil instead of an instrument would be also an option one day, doing research on various topics (history or spirituality) or building up a huge garden and finding out more about natural healing by using plants etc. etc. etc. There are so many possibilities.

But  right now and for sure also for the next years I see my potential in writing music, maybe also to support a product and give it an emotional component, without the music being the main aspect of the product. The new age project I was talking about in the beginning of the interview for instance is not 100% a music project, the music will support text and voice recording material.

Thank you very much for the interview, Roman, and a big hello to all friends and fans from Russia. Greetings to Bonez, Priest, Alexey and Andi from IronD, Senmuth, Lefthander and Evgeniy who spends his time isolated in deep Siberia. (laughs) Oh, and not to forget: big thanks and hello to my friends of Theodor Bastard from St. Petersburg without whom “Nour” would have been absolutely impossible!

Shiva In Exile on the Internet: http://www.shiva-in-exile.de

Special thanks to Alexei “KIDd” Kuzovlev (Irond) for arranging this interview

Roman “Maniac” Patrashov
July 20, 2008
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