Ayreon
Complete The Circle

11.02.2008

It’s been four years since our previous conversation with Dutch rock opera wizard Arjen Anthony Lucassen. Back then we discussed “The Human Equation”, a huge 2CD trip to the depth of the human mind, which is the most unusual and the most moving one out of all rock operas released under the name of Ayreon. A lot of things have happened since then. Arjen and Mexican singer Marcela Bovio, who sang the part of “Wife” on “The Human Equation”, went on to form Stream Of Passion and released a successful album and a wonderful live DVD. Then things came to an abrupt halt with Arjen leaving the band, divorcing his long-time wife, going through a deep depression, and then re-emerging with a new 2CD monolith as Ayreon, this time carrying a strange title of “01011001”. On the one hand, the CD is a return to the roots, and those who are familiar with Arjen’s early releases will find a lot of familiar stuff here, both musically and lyrically-wise. This is a real feast for those who like Arjen’s sci-fi concepts connecting the past, the present and the future, and the cast of singers is once again breathtaking – Hansi Kuersch (Blind Guardian), Daniel Gildenlowe (Pain Of Salvation), Jorn Lande (ex-Masterplan), and Anneke von Giersbergen (ex-The Gathering) are just the top of the list. On the other hand, Arjen has said on more than one occasion that he hates to repeat himself. Read on to find out more about what is old and what is new in the Ayreon universe…

The new Ayreon album has quite a complicated title – “01011001”. How do you call it for short? We don’t think you say “Zero One Zero One…” and so on every time you are speaking about it…

Its first name is “Zero One”, so that’s easier. (laughs)

Why did you decide to name the new album in such an unusual way? Not everybody knows that this combination of figures actually means “Y”…

I like to be different. I like to be complicated. I don’t like to make it too easy for people. Basically it’s a reaction to my previous album, “The Human Equation” (2004), which had a kind of easy story - it was about this man in a coma who was battling with his emotions. And I read some reviews where people were saying, “We think this story is a bit too clear.” This time I wanted to make it a bit more cryptic, make it a bit more challenging for the people. It’s about the water race called Forever living on planet Y, who become completely dependent on technology and machines, and the only way they can communicate to each other is in binary language, which you can hear in the first song “We Are Forever”, where Anneke is singing a binary code. The original title of the album was “The Sixth Extinction”, which is quite a tongue-breaker (laughs and says it very fast) – “the sixthextinction”. But all of a sudden I thought, “Wow, a binary code would be very cool as an album title.” In the beginning everyone said, “You’re crazy, you’re completely crazy, you can’t do it!” And I was like, “Yeah, sure I can.” The thing is that everyone was discussing it, and there was a lot of talk going on about it, and that’s exactly what I wanted to. (everybody laughs)

Giving the album such a title means taking a certain risk, because it’s not very easy to memorize. But at the same time Ayreon is a big name nowadays, so you can afford such a risk. In general, do you think that your current level of success gives you more freedom than you had when you were recording the first album, or is it just the contrary – do you feel more pressure because of people’s expectations?

No, I don’t feel pressure at all, it’s people’s expectations that keep me going. I need that challenge of people saying, “Oh, we’re waiting for your next album!” I was going through a deep depression last year, because my wife had divorced me, and I was feeling horrible. And I really needed that challenge of the fans. You say it’s taking a risk, but doing the whole Ayreon project has been a risk, especially in the 1990s. I started with a progressive metal opera, which wasn’t done back then. It was Nirvana, Pearl Jam and that kind of music that was done, and people said, “You’re crazy, you can’t do a progressive rock opera in the 1990s.” I think I’ve always been taking risks, and I found out that taking risks really works if you’re behind that yourself. If you feel that you’re doing a great thing and you’re doing it from your heart, then you can get away with it. I’d rather have people say like, “Oh, I hate it!” and other say, “Oh, I love it!”, than people say, “Oh, it’s OK…” That’s the worst insult to me. (laughs)

You said that some people were unhappy with “The Human Equation”. And what do you personally think about that album nowadays?

It was the opinion of one or two reviewers, but when I read that I thought they had a point. I thought that the story was very easy, and I explained it in the booklet very clearly, but that was definitely what I wanted to do at that time. I wanted the story to be very clear, and I wanted the singers to be very audible, so they are very upfront in the mix, and the story is very important. It’s exactly what I wanted back then. I’m 100 percent behind it, and it’s my fastest selling album. “Into The Electric Castle” (1998) still sold a bit more, as it was released 10 years ago, but “The Human Equation” is selling very well, and I’m really proud of it. It’s just that this time I wanted to do something different. I don’t just wanna do things different from other people, I also want to do things different from my own stuff.

On the previous album you chose singers that were very good at representing extreme emotions and that hadn’t worked with you before. What were the principles you were guided by when you were choosing singers this time?

Very simple – they had to give me goosebumps. That was my only criterion. Every time I hear a singer that makes me go like, “Wow, this is cool, I would like to work with him or her,” I write the name down, and this time the fans actually suggested a lot of singers. For instance, the most requested singers were Hansi Kuersch, Daniel Gildenlowe, Jorn Lande and Tom Englund (Evergrey). At the time when I choose singers I have a list of 30 or 40 names, then I choose the singers that fit the album, that fit the music and fit the story. This time the story was rather dark, and the music was rather heavy, so that’s why there are a bit more rock and metal singers. Once I have all the singers confirmed, I start with the last step, which is writing the lyrics.

The cast of singers is very diverse this time. There is even a rapper called Wudstik. Why did you decide to have this person on your record?

Wudstik was a funny choice, because he’s a hip hop artist who sings in Dutch, and I’m not a fan of hip hop. (laughs) He added himself as a friend on my MySpace page, and I was like, “Hey, what’s this hip hop doing here?” (everybody laughs) I went to his website and I played the songs, and they were all hip hop like this (imitates a typical hip hop vocal melody), so I was like, “Why does this guy like my music? I don’t understand!” Then I looked at his favorite bands, and they were Pain Of Salvation, Dream Theater and Ayreon. I was like, “Wow!” Then I found a track on his MySpace page called “She Said”, where he sang in English, and it was beautiful, it reminded me a little bit of James LaBrie. I got in contact with him, and he said, “Oh, I’m a big fan of your music! Please let me do just one scream on your album, and I would be the happiest person alive!” (everybody laughs) I said, “Well, come by, come to my studio, and let’s see what happens.” He came here and he turned out to be a great singer and a great person with a great charisma. I like to give people like that a chance. I also love it when people are open-minded, when they’re not like, “I do just hip hop and I hate metal!” Wudstik is very open-minded, I think you can compare our collaboration to what happened in the 1980s when Aerosmith did “Walk This Way” with Run DMC. That was just cool! (laughs) Two completely different styles were getting together. I think Wudstik is a great talent.

Every Ayreon album features a few singers that have never participated in projects like this before. This time they are Steve Lee (Gotthard) and Jonas Renkse (Katatonia), for instance…

You’re right. I love that! I love to be original in choice. (laughs) Steve had never ever done a guest appearance on any other album before. I tried him before, but he didn’t have time, and this time he said, “Well, let’s try it!” I’ve been a fan of his voice for about 20 years now, so that was cool.

We were very surprised to find out that Steve actually auditioned for your old band Vengeance…

Yeah, when we played a show in Italy, he was in the support band. He was the drummer back then, and he gave us a CD with him singing, and I went like, “Oh my God, this guy is good!” When our singer left, I contacted him, he came over to my place and auditioned. Somehow it didn’t work out, I don’t remember why, but now it turned out cool. As to Jonas, I think he did one guest appearance before that, he sang for a band called Swallow The Sun, if I’m not mistaken, but of course, it was the first time he did a rock opera thing. Once again, it’s a different choice. People can expect Jorn Lande or Bob Catley (Magnum) on the album, but they would never expect a guy like Jonas Renkse.   

Speaking about Jorn Lande, he has sung for almost everybody, and critics nowadays accuse Jorn of just renting his throat, and not putting his own emotions in the music. For instance, this concerns his performance on the latest Ken Hensley album (“Blood On The Highway”, 2007). What are your own impressions from working with Jorn?

Well, I have to tell you that the first time I heard him – I think it was on an Ark CD – he sounded like David Coverdale too much. I was like, “Hey, what’s this idiot doing? He sings like Coverdale, and he’s so good, but why does he sing like someone else?” I didn’t like it. I realized that he was good and maybe even better than David Coverdale, but he didn’t have his own style, so I wasn’t interested in working with him. At a certain point, a couple of years ago, I started hearing Jorn’s clones, I started hearing singers who sound like Jorn, but who don’t sound like Coverdale or Dio. That’s the moment when I realized that Jorn had actually developed his own style. Of course, together with Russel Allen (Symphony X) and maybe Steve Lee, he’s the best singer in the world right now, and some parts on this album were just screaming for his voice. I don’t have principles like, “Oh, this guy was on so many albums, so I’m not gonna ask him!” I mean, this guy is on so many albums, because he’s the best in the world. And because he’s the best in the world, I want him on my album. (laughs)

Going back to the album concept, the future of mankind that you describe is very dark. Do you think we are indeed doomed to fall, and there is no chance to escape the end of the world?

Well, in my story the end of the world is in 2084, which is a bit to fast. (laughs) It was the fact that was stated on my first album, “The Final Experiment” (1995), where I just added a century to George Orwell’s 1984, that was basically the idea. I don’t think it will be that fast, but I definitely think that we’re heading for the sixth extinction. The fifth extinction was the extinction of the dinosaurs, and the sixth extinction is the extinction of mankind. Yes, I do think we are headed for that, because there’s overpopulation, and we’re exploiting Earth resource, and they will be gone one day. I don’t think this will end pretty.

So do you think there’s no way to alter this course?

No, there’s no way, no. The only way to escape is to have a kind of Big Brother situation, like in “1984”, where there’s a force in control of everything, and that would not be good. You would have to stop technology, you would have to allow only one kid per person, like they do in China, and maybe there will be no place for all the people, so everyone will have to die at the age of 60. You would have to have weird rules like these if you want the world to survive, and I don’t think that’s gonna work. I don’t think that technology is always a good thing, but I really don’t think you should stop technology. It’s in mankind’s blood to broaden its horizons, it’s the human equation, it’s like in “Star Trek”, where they say, “to boldly go where no man has gone before.” (laughs)

Some of the ideas that can be heard on the album are quite close to what Daniel Gildenlowe was singing about on his album “BE”. Were you influenced by Pain Of Salvation when you were working on the new CD?

Ehm… Of course, I heard “BE”, and it was really interesting, but his ideas are still different from mine. I think it’s also his personal view, he really doesn’t like America. (laughs) I’m not as political as he is, and it’s not my personal view in my albums. Some personal ideas of mine are in there, but I would have to force my personal views upon the people. I don’t say that Daniel is doing that, he’s very honest, he sings what he feels, and that’s good. But I think we are quite different from each other in that respect.

Can you say a few words about the song “Web Of Lies”? It’s obviously a part of the concept, but the connection is quite loose…

It’s funny, because people are saying, “Oh, the lyrics are really cheesy, it’s a shitty album with cheesy lyrics, just look at the song “Web Of Lies”, it’s so superficial – “I love you” and whatever.” But they don’t get it, because it’s meant to be superficial. The lyrics are so stupid (laughs), because it’s about Internet dating, which I think is a very superficial thing. The reason why the song is on the album is that I wanted to make a reference to what’s happening on their planet with singing about what’s happening here – people becoming very superficial. A friend of mine was completely hooked on Internet dating, that was all he did for a year, and every week he had a new woman. (laughs) He was like, “Oh, I’ve got Julie now, I love her, she’s so great!” And then a week later I would speak to him, “Hey, how’s Julie?” “Julie? Who’s that?” “That’s the girl you met a week ago.” “No, I’m completely in love with Mary now!” (laughs) He did that for a year until he was completely broke, it was like a candy box, he ate it until it was empty. Then he started working again and met a nice girl in his office, so he’s very happy now. Internet dating might work for some people, but I think it’s quite superficial, that’s why this song is on the album. It’s a reference to what is happening there.

For the previous album you shot a videoclip for the song “Loser”, but this time you have a kind of CGI movie for “Beneath The Waves”. It’s a very interesting idea, but it’s not likely to be shown on television programs dealing with music, don’t you think?

It’s way too long for that. (laughs) The original idea was to make a movie to the whole album, but that would have taken too long. This video took this guy a year to make in his spare time, so to do a movie for the whole album would have taken him years. That unfortunately wasn’t possible. When you do a big science fiction thing about the beginning and the end of the world and a race from a water planet, you can’t just do a videoclip with people jumping around and playing guitar, like we did on “Loser.” (laughs) For “Loser” it was cool, we could do it, but this time I don’t think you can do a clip like that, it would not fit the concept. The video for “Beneath The Waves” is very dark, it’s bigger than life, and that’s what I like about it.

We guess many people are asking you about that, but have you ever received any proposals from the movie industry, such as to write music for a movie or to turn any of your albums into a script for a movie?

Of course, that would be a dream come true for me, that would be so great. Unfortunately, I haven’t had any offers yet. I think it’s a completely different world, and there are millions and millions of screen writers there who are far more talented than I am. Yeah, it would be a dream come true for me, but unfortunately I don’t know anything about this world, I don’t know any people there, I have no idea how it works or how to get through to them. If Mr. Spielberg is hearing this, he can give me a call. (everybody laughs)

Yeah, we have only heard about one musician who’s become big as a movie maker – Rob Zombie…

Yeah, he did “The House of 1,000 Corpses”. I haven’t seen it, I must say, but I’m really interested in seeing this, because I love horror stuff. And I like what Rob Zombie does in music, I’m a big Alice Cooper fan, and Rob Zombie is as well, so there’s similarity.

More about promotion – you released three singles in support of “The Human Equation”, but this time nothing like that is planned. What is the reason? And do you have any leftovers from the studio session that can be used as single B-sides?

The stupid thing is that I didn’t think about singles at all. (laughs) You usually pick up commercial songs for singles, and there are no commercial songs on this album, I think. Coincidentally, the record company has approached me this week saying, “Shall we do a single?” I really like the track “Waking Dreams”, I think it’s not a typical commercial song or a radio song, but if that becomes a hit, it will be cool, because it’s different again. (laughs) As to the bonus material, we did a release party last Sunday, where there were between 10 and 15 musicians, and we played some tracks in acoustics, so maybe we can use some tracks recorded there. In addition, I did some acoustic radio shows with one of the female singers on this album, her name is Marian Welman, she’s a great new talent, so these recordings can work as a great bonus material as well. I do have a surprise up my sleeve – to do a cover version of a song with a famous musician who has also released a rock opera. You might know whom I mean, but I can’t mention his name.

Speaking about rock operas – “Zero One” came out on January 28, and basically the same month another rock opera was released – the third CD of Tobias Sammet’s Avantasia.

Oh, that’s a coincidence! (cracks)

Have you heard it, and if yes, what do you think about it?

Yes, I’ve heard it, because Tobias sent it to me. (laughs) He’s such a nice guy, he contacted me a couple of weeks ago via e-mail, and he said, “Hey man, we’re talking about each other all the time in interviews, let’s get acquainted.” (everybody laughs) My e-mail to him was like, “I hate you, you bastard, you have Alice Cooper, and I hope you will rot in hell for this.” He replied, “You’ve got Bruce Dickinson, you asshole!” (everybody laughs) This is going on like this, we’re writing mails to each other every day. He’s a great guy. A lot of people in the press are putting us up against each other – “Clash of the Titans! Who wins?” and stuff like that. And we’re like, “Hey man, let’s work together.” It can be a good thing, if people like a rock opera they want more, and I think we can help each other.

We would also like to discuss some other projects you have been involved with. The first question is about Stream Of Passion. How do you feel about this band continuing to play without you? A lot of people considered this to be primarily your band…

It was never meant to be my band, it was always meant to be Marcela’s band. And from the beginning it was always clear that I would go back to Ayreon, and it was always clear that I would leave the band. Basically everything is going according to plan, they’ve got two new guitar players now, and they’ve been here a couple of times playing their new songs. All is going well.

For many of those who saw the “Live In The Real World” DVD, your decision to quit Stream Of Passion was a surprise, because they saw how much you enjoyed playing together. Are there any chances that you will rejoin Stream Of Passion in the future if you have time?

No, absolutely not. The reason for that is that it was set up as Marcela’s band, not my band, and I really want them to do it on their own. I helped them start it up, and I think it’s very important that I’m not there pulling the strings anymore. I will never join them again, they’ve got new guitar players, and they’re great guys, I know them. This is the way it should be.

The next question is about Vengeance – Leon Goewie has once again reformed this band, and you once again took part in working on their new record, “Back In The Ring” (2007). As far as we know, you were not happy with your involvement in the previous Vengeance album “Back From Flight 19” (1997), so what made you give it another try?

The funny thing is that I played all the Vengeance material to someone the other day, and I played “Flight 19” as well. I was like, “Oh my God, this is great!” (laughs) I was playing it, and I was like, “This is the best album we ever did with Vengeance! Why did it fail?” At that time I thought that it wasn’t a good album. In fact, I recorded it mostly on my own, like I do Ayreon. The problem with that album was that it wasn’t a Vengeance album. Vengeance was party rock, something like, “Come on, girls, let’s get wet!” “Flight 19” was a very dark record, and it failed, because people were expecting something else. Actually my contribution to their last album was just a solo. They asked me to write songs, and I was like, “No, sorry, guys, it’s in the past for me.” Vengeance was cool back in the 1980s, but I’m looking to the future now. Then they asked me, “Will you do a solo?”, and I was like, “Well, sure!” You know, doing a solo costs you an hour or something, it’s the same as going shopping. (laughs) It’s not like I’ve been involved in the album, I just played a solo.

Leon tried bringing Vengeance back several times in the past, but the band never lasted for a long time without you. How do you estimate his current chances of regaining success?

I don’t think he wants success, I don’t think he has the idea that Vengeance will be huge again. He just wants to have fun and play live. That’s all he wants, and that’s what he’s doing right now. I think Vengeance is already successful in a way, and it will never be huge or big… Sorry, I have to tell you – I’m supposed to do another interview… three minutes ago. (laughs)

OK, then we will ask you just one last question. Since “The Universal Migrator” (2000) you release Ayreon albums every four years, and every time the release date is during a leap year. Is it a coincidence, or do you consider leap years to be more favorable or more successful ones?

(laughs) Oh, it’s just a coincidence. I never plan anything, because as soon as I plan something, things go wrong. (laughs) Is it really true that all Ayreon albums are coming out on leap years? I never thought about it! Well, then I suppose the next one will be in 2012! (laughs again)

Ayreon on the Internet: http://www.ayreon.com

Special thanks to Alexei “KIDd” Kuzovlev (Irond Records) for arranging this interview

Roman “Maniac” Patrashov, Natalie “Snakeheart” Patrashova
January 31, 2008
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